It funny when Intel finally comes out with 10nm and new architecture, people say nothing new - especially that it also corrected the migration issues in hardware.
Intel are releasing only Ice Lake-U and Y processors for the foreseeable future. While they are apparently going to have an almost twice as fast iGPU there was not a single word in the presentation about CPU performance. Intel tried to mask this with AI and wireless performance numbers, but the lack of the word "CPU" in their presentation was conspicuous in its absence to put it mildly.
There are two alternative explanations for that : either Sunny Cove sucks (an arch problem) or thermal issues do not let them raise clocks high enough to raise the performance over their 14nm+++ equivalent U CPUs, or perhaps, who knows, even match it (a node problem).
The lack of any information about the release of mid and high power desktop Ice Lake CPUs, Comet Lake, the rumors about severe thermal and frequency issues they face, and the notorious delays of Intel's highly complex 10nm node hint at the latter. My guess is that Ice Lake-U has, at best, a 2 to 5% (CPU performance) edge over an equivalent Whiskey Lake-U, and Intel felt too embarrassed to report that number. At worst it might have a -5% performance regression up to the same performance.
I expect Intel to spin *heavily* the iGPU performance of Ice Lake-U and conveniently "forget" to report CPU performance numbers (or cherrypick the benchmarks, use more aggressive compiler flags when compiling them etc etc, they excel in that stuff), in an apparent reversal of what happened before. The AI/DL and wireless performance numbers will also be employed to assist with this marketing spin.
The Verge had an article about Ice Lake. Intel boasted with 15% IPC gain over Kaby lake. It also featured a graph showing 3% improved single-threaded performance compared to Whiskey lake.
Yea, but once you add the mitigations for Meltdown, Specter, Spoiler, Zombieload, etc, that 15% IPC becomes a, "we just caught back up to where we were three years ago" situation.
It depends if it's hardware mitigations or software. SW mitigations have been shown to have a bigger impact on performance than HW. IIRC, the difference was like 15% vs 4% on average.
the think that you can't understand is that Intel engineers are not so dumb to make 10 or so errors where everyone else just done things right. It's not error made by Intel engineers at all! It's an error in security model developed by CS.
So 1) while Intel can make patches against concrete attacks, real situation will change only when CS will develop new security model and this model will be applied to development of newer processors 2) any other processor executing anything speculative, or using caches, is subject to similar, although slightly different, attacks. The only reason while we hear only about attacks applicable to Intel cpus is because they are most open and most widespread ones (and probably Intel paid a lot for these attempts). So, for amd, arm, ibm and other processors these attacks can be developed by enough motivated groups (be it NSA or hackers seeking for money) and used as well. So, the main difference is that you know about Intel-related attacks now while attacks against other cpus will became known when they will be really used
The thing that you can't understand is that speculative execution attacks are new, and there was no easy way for Intel to have known about them, so there was no protection against them whatsoever. Due to Intel CPU internal design, they are specifically vulnerable to these attacks and the mitigations cause a greater loss of performance than they do to their competitors' chips. This is not about whether Intel engineers are "smart" or "dumb", and it is not about "doing things right", and it is definitely not about a CS "security model" (there is no over-arching CS security model, by the way). It's about an UNFORESEEN attack vector.
Now that the speculative execution attack vector is known, designers will be able to guard against it. I don't think we have a lot to fear from NSA or hackers, going forward, as long as the safeguards are in place.
I need to reiterate - do you believe that Intel CPU design was so special that they made 10 such errors when other developers made no one? Actually, all bugs known in other CPUs up to date are just errors found in Intel CPUs that are also applicable to some other ones. Do you really believe that all other cpu vendors made only errors that was initially found in Intel cpus?
Next, the attack vector is the following - if execution time depends on the data, then it can be measured and data are revealed. It was used for a while to construct fixed-time cryptographic algorithms, and now we finally realized that non-crypto algorithms may have sensitive data too, so we need to protect everything. And I don't know any guaranteed protection short of using only single-core cpus and clearing all cache levels on context switching - does anyone know better solution?
Spectre and so on are not CPU vulnerabilities, they are attacks. Each month a new attack is developed using these principles. So, it's pretty meaningless to mitigate each particular attack.
Actually, yes. It was special, because it was advanced. They pulled 'smart tricks' to increase performance on existing nodes/architectures. Their speculations was far more speculative than others. And this is the price.
because they had patented the design, so their competitors could not. the reason why AMD was dorment and second class for so long was due to living off of Intel patents from the Pentium 4 stack that they got through cross-licensing with Nat-Simi before Intel stopped their cross-licensing with them. Intel rebuilt their CPU stack after that based on their mobile processor redesign, (dolphin) that was 100% intel only design and patents. AMD had to do the same thing to break the performance limits of the Pentium 4 architecture. Each ended up with vastly different results.
hstewart.. still believing the lies from intel??? zen 2..as fast as intel it seems ( waiting for reviews to be sure.) while running 300 to 400 mhz less. and costing less to boot
better question is.. IF intel comes out with 10nm in volume.. they have been promising this for only the last 4 YEARS now
So, releasing the cherry-picked 9900k that can overclock to 5GHz on all cores in the fourth quarter is the Intel response to AMD releasing 12 core parts with a higher IPC than Intel has. AMD didn't even release the 16 core parts, just to be sure to have something to fight back with in case Intel actually had a response worth looking at.
Intel graphics....it's all smoke and mirrors, "look at me, I'll have something for you in another six months!". I loved the line about people trusting Intel after more security issues were found that when addressed, will reduce the performance of Intel chips.
"01:46AM EDT - Gamers like RGB LEDs and thermals, but noise don't mind"
What are the engineers smoking? Gamers are quite concerned with noise along with thermals. I dont want my PC to sound like I am sitting in a datacenter.
Im a gamer and I dont care for RGB and do want good noise levels. My apartment is peaceful I don't want it to sound like a vacuum / airport when I'm gaming and using voice chat.
@Opencg, I'm running an i9-9900K at 4.8GHz max turbo on all eight cores, 100% CPU usage on all cores (Folding@Home) with no noise issues, on air.
For reference, my intake fans are a 200mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro and a 200mm Noctua. My exhaust fans are a 230mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro and a 120mm Scythe Gentle Typhoon (medium noise). Add to that two Noctua Redux 120mm 1300rpm fans for my Thermalright TRUE Black 120 heatsink, and two Geforce GTX 1070 Founder's Edition cards, and it's still very reasonable. I don't need headphones to block noise; I'm using a modest Logitech X-530 5.1 speaker system. Case fans are attached to a Lamptron FC5v2 fan controller, however, all but one fan is running at full 12v; I think I turned my intake Bitfenix 200mm down slightly, to about 10v.
None of my CPU cores go above 80C at full load on all of them. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do a reasonable, quiet job of air cooling with the Coffee Lake Refresh CPUs; it just requires attention to build quality, like should be done with any system build.
That depends a lot on where you live in terms of climate In summer my computer can get BSOD if I OC it too much while being perfectly fine in winter with the same OC.
I am a gamer, got gamer friends, all only care about perf up, thermals and noise down. Nobody really wants RGB, at best some just suffer it better than others.
I believe no true engineer would want to design things that sacrifice simplicity, performance or cost just to put some horrid lights and brittle, airflow-choking glass everywhere. This is just classic corporate bull****, because they just "KNOW" what people want. We must never settle for RGB TG trash, they won't stop unless people stop buying.
I don't think this statement is untrue. Most gamers who dont invest significant amounts into water cooling their GPUs are accustomed to a certain level of noise and also wear headphones, so it's commonly not a big deal if fan noise levels are above average compared to a normal home PC for grandma and grandpa.
Agreed. It's the headphones that make the difference. My PC is quite loud but I never notice it at all. I'd happily go with more noise for higher performance at the same price point, as long as it doesn't get unreasonably loud.
I would never trust a laptop from dell / alienware to get the rated performance of its cpu and gpu. Get a clevo and use liquid metal if you want a desktop replacement.
Reality has been making desktops less and less relevant for the last decade. Gaming (for the subset of games where a PC delivers a significantly better experience than a console) and the small subset of pro work that's demanding enough that a high-end laptop can handle but not demanding enough to offload the real computing off to a server are about the only real use cases for a desktop. And Intel hasn't started with a desktop architecture in designing a new core since the P4 (and won't ever again); that's hardly new.
Intel's presentation must have been written before AMD announced yesterday that AMD is also launching laptops with Ryzen 3000 desktop-like CPUs so those Intel laptops are going to be second class in battery life + performance.
Let's not be that sure yet. In laptops, platform power is what matters, and given PCIE4 is power hungry, given Intel's current advantage in battery life (Whisky Lake vs 3000U series from AMD), I really doubt they can reach or even surpass Intel on this front, even with their 7nm process. But we'll see.
The 3000U series doesn't have PCIe 4.0 (except the PCH perhaps) unless I missed something.
The Ice Lake mobile CPUs is the only thing that really looks interesting though. And they should have MDS mitigations in hardware like Whiskey Lake as well.
Tests will show how well they stack up against the 3000U series in performance and battery life because as we all know, performance doesn't come free so there'll definitely be power consumption cost of improving the graphics performance. But since AMD is still on 12nm for their 3000U series, Intel may still have a tentative hold in this rather niche market.
Sgeocla did talk about "laptops with Ryzen 3000 desktop-like CPUs". So he is likely talking about Zen 2 laptops, not Zen+ APU laptops. And those Zen 2 CPUs have PCIe4. I have not seen that sort of announcement though. Maybe I just missed it, but I think desktop calls CPUs in laptops (likely 6 and 8 core) from AMD would have been bigger news. Apart from all of that, AMD CPUs and APUs can run without chipsets. They are fully integrated SoCs if need be, with USB and SATA connectivity right on board.
I made these comments during the live stream. The XPS 2-in-1 was shown later and not by the Dell guy himself. They didn't seem to care enough about Ice Lake. High performance CPUs were probably more important to him...
no new interesting products from intel, jusr help venters to sell products (pr marketting), no benchmarch to compete with AMD, can not compete the AMD?
Ice Lake gaming benchmarks in the last few days were shown using very high frequency RAM for Intel while gimping AMD system with lower DDR-2400. This is Intel on 10nm barely competing with AMD Vega graphics on 12nm. AMD just announced their new gaming focused RDNA compute units with 25% higher IPC. When new 7nm APUs launch Intel in going to have a very bad time.
Sorry, but they overclocked the Intel CPU to bring it to 25W "for comparison," then they want to stick to spec for their competitor? That is BS. Shrout said the same thing when trying to crap on IF to make it look worse compared to Intel's mesh. I called him out for it, he just shrugged (if you want the email back and forth, I can give that to you).
Also, the Ice Lake-U family, generally, only supports 3200MHz on ram, officially. So the 3733 ram used here is a specific instance, not the general spec, which also shows tom foolery afoot. That difference is 55% memory bandwidth!
So the answer is NOT acceptable. Especially when you are left to ask what the performance on it is without being overclocked.
The Ice Lake iGPU looks interesting (particularly with those leaked benchmarks) but I can't help but think there'll be a Navi APU out within a few months of this hitting the shelves that will blow it away. Of course, I might be wrong, but the pieces certainly seem to be falling into place for AMD.
Those Ice lake benchmark gen 11 benchmarks are comple BS. Compare the 8565 with 8569U (standard Iris plus) . You can compare on Notebookchek if you want, I added links at bottom. You will see that you get almost the same results with 48 EU of iris plus., but we all know how bad Iris plus is...
Intel cherry picked results where they are strong (like 3D mark). They aren't even close in "real life" (they like to use this marketing term ;) ) to ryzen.
But TBH Raven ridge/Ice Lake/ mx 150 are basically useless for modern games anyway....
Intel: lots of $$ from years of market domination.
This parts for less of Intel engineers, on-site, to work with OEM partners. Everywhere.
So blah blah blah ecosystem and a keynote packed with partners showing the results. Everywhere.
Individual enthusiasts can go with AMD awesome, but if the OEMs keep pumping Intel devices that are good enough, vPro etc, why would they switch to AMD?
That said, Intel is in a world of hurt with the suits, the business people, over MDS mitigation blowing their hyperthreading.
You bet they are showing shiny things on stage today, what can they do?
It’s somewhat hard when you have an undergrad EE with a masters in business and no engineering experience compared to an actual engineer with a PhD and a long list of accolades.
"People want systems that are smart and adaptable"
Smart users want laptops that are quality built, quick, quiet, cool running with long battery life, but also with a slew of connectors (USBs, DP/HDMI, SD...), upgradable with standard industry parts and without LED/gamer look crap. I have not seen such in a long time.
Assuming their automatic OC tool does a good job of finding optimal settings its ability to retest over time and adjust for aging silicon is rather attractive to me. Having to repeat the process a few years later when my current chip can't handle quite as much power as it used to is a real drag.
Oh, please, Intel. Shut up. You spend the last 10 years stagnating mainstream 'innovation' in favour of pure profits and bottom lines. You locked the technology and processing power behind huge pay walls only the rich could afford. You strangled the consumer for every last penny. Now AMD is back with a vengeance and truly innovating again, you offer what? A rehashed piece of crap based on tech from 2014? No thanks.
So is there any news of their mainstream desktop plans at all for this year to Q1/Q2 of next year? When will icelake/sunny cove be released for desktop?
Ryzen 3XXX seems to have around 10-12% IPC advantage over the coffee lake, at least in non-gaming scenarios. Saw on other sites there will be 18% ipc improvement for icelake/sunny cove.
Provided it is not just smoke and distorted benchmark results (they didn't seem to release/demo cinebench/blender etc like AMD does) , and they release by Q2 2020 to go against ryzen 4XXX/zen 2+/Zen3, next year will be a close fight. That if it is reasonably priced.
If they really drag til end of 2020 or even 2021 to get them out....
What I want to know is what are those new Xeon E SKUs.
The downside is that I still have DRAMATICALLY conflicting hardware needs:
On one hand, I am now bound/limited by the number of PCIe lanes that any CPU OEM has to offer. (AMD is winning this race in theory, but no one, to the best of my knowledge, has actually tested it.)
And on the other, I still need ultra fast single process/sing thread performance that Intel (with their new 9900KS) will dominate. *sigh...decisions, decisions, decisions*
And that 95W only applies to base frequency, not even to single-core turbo frequency. The AMD provided cooler can get AMD chips to the rated speeds for both base and boost frequencies, while Intel....yea, how long can you stay at a turbo frequency with the included cooler?
Nothing about the CPU performance of Ice Lake-U? I mean not a single word? ~2x GPU performance is surely neat, though faster wireless is largely a gimmick - unless you are the kind of person who bridges multiple wi-fi routers wirelessly in his house or like to throw LAN parties. Faster AI performance is also nice, though highly specialized. But not if there is a regression in CPU performance due to serious clock and thermal issues, which is apparently the reason Intel pulled back indefinitely(?) the release of mid (H) and high power (S) Ice Lake CPUs.
They are talking about IPC improvements but not performance improvements. This probably means that Ice Lake cannot reach working frequencies of 14nm processors. I do not expect CPU performance regression though.
Thanks Ian and Gavin! What I am missing in this episode of "Intel and Friends" are prices! Some of these laptops and rigs sound great, and they probably are, but what's the value proposition? One thing I liked about AMD's presentation on Matisse was that at least they had some recommended prices available. A lot of the products shown here seem to be "price upon request" or "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". You won't move a lot of product with that approach. With AMD on a roll, Intel needs to show now that they can compete on bang for the buck, or it'll be "Intel outside" for more and more customers.
"42% of millenials would rather leave than work at a company that doesn't have a high standard of technology"
Why does management listen to millenials over things like this? They haven't even experienced enough of life to even know what's really good for them or the rest of the world.
As a Baby Boomer in a management role with a large technology-oriented company, I listen to Millenials because they are our future. They are a product of their environment - fast paced, action oriented decision makers. They grew up with technology, they learned on technology, and do awesome things with technology. I have learned that if you want to keep them, you give them opportunities and tools to succeed. Technology is an enabler to that end.
Intel still leads in notebooks and tablets, unfortunately. AMD needs to do a lot more to convince manufacturers to use Zen APUs in Ultrabooks and convertibles like the Surface Pro.
Is this because Zen still can't hit sub-10W TDPs like Intel's U lineup?
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ViRGE - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Well this should prove interesting. AMD really knocked things out of the park yesterday. Can Intel offer a compelling response?Chaitanya - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel has nothing new to show other than a smokescreen to keep investors pleased.BigMamaInHouse - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel Keynote summery: "we have made OC tool to OC each core to max - since it's all we got to improver performance last 10 years" LOLHStewart - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
It funny when Intel finally comes out with 10nm and new architecture, people say nothing new - especially that it also corrected the migration issues in hardware.FreckledTrout - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Im sure once Intel has 10nm based desktop chips performing better than what they have now on 14nm there will be tons of noise.Santoval - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel are releasing only Ice Lake-U and Y processors for the foreseeable future. While they are apparently going to have an almost twice as fast iGPU there was not a single word in the presentation about CPU performance. Intel tried to mask this with AI and wireless performance numbers, but the lack of the word "CPU" in their presentation was conspicuous in its absence to put it mildly.There are two alternative explanations for that : either Sunny Cove sucks (an arch problem) or thermal issues do not let them raise clocks high enough to raise the performance over their 14nm+++ equivalent U CPUs, or perhaps, who knows, even match it (a node problem).
The lack of any information about the release of mid and high power desktop Ice Lake CPUs, Comet Lake, the rumors about severe thermal and frequency issues they face, and the notorious delays of Intel's highly complex 10nm node hint at the latter. My guess is that Ice Lake-U has, at best, a 2 to 5% (CPU performance) edge over an equivalent Whiskey Lake-U, and Intel felt too embarrassed to report that number. At worst it might have a -5% performance regression up to the same performance.
I expect Intel to spin *heavily* the iGPU performance of Ice Lake-U and conveniently "forget" to report CPU performance numbers (or cherrypick the benchmarks, use more aggressive compiler flags when compiling them etc etc, they excel in that stuff), in an apparent reversal of what happened before. The AI/DL and wireless performance numbers will also be employed to assist with this marketing spin.
Rudde - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
The Verge had an article about Ice Lake. Intel boasted with 15% IPC gain over Kaby lake. It also featured a graph showing 3% improved single-threaded performance compared to Whiskey lake.Targon - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Yea, but once you add the mitigations for Meltdown, Specter, Spoiler, Zombieload, etc, that 15% IPC becomes a, "we just caught back up to where we were three years ago" situation.plsbugmenot - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
It depends if it's hardware mitigations or software. SW mitigations have been shown to have a bigger impact on performance than HW. IIRC, the difference was like 15% vs 4% on average.Bulat Ziganshin - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
the think that you can't understand is that Intel engineers are not so dumb to make 10 or so errors where everyone else just done things right. It's not error made by Intel engineers at all! It's an error in security model developed by CS.So 1) while Intel can make patches against concrete attacks, real situation will change only when CS will develop new security model and this model will be applied to development of newer processors
2) any other processor executing anything speculative, or using caches, is subject to similar, although slightly different, attacks. The only reason while we hear only about attacks applicable to Intel cpus is because they are most open and most widespread ones (and probably Intel paid a lot for these attempts). So, for amd, arm, ibm and other processors these attacks can be developed by enough motivated groups (be it NSA or hackers seeking for money) and used as well. So, the main difference is that you know about Intel-related attacks now while attacks against other cpus will became known when they will be really used
Carmen00 - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
The thing that you can't understand is that speculative execution attacks are new, and there was no easy way for Intel to have known about them, so there was no protection against them whatsoever. Due to Intel CPU internal design, they are specifically vulnerable to these attacks and the mitigations cause a greater loss of performance than they do to their competitors' chips. This is not about whether Intel engineers are "smart" or "dumb", and it is not about "doing things right", and it is definitely not about a CS "security model" (there is no over-arching CS security model, by the way). It's about an UNFORESEEN attack vector.Now that the speculative execution attack vector is known, designers will be able to guard against it. I don't think we have a lot to fear from NSA or hackers, going forward, as long as the safeguards are in place.
Bulat Ziganshin - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
I need to reiterate - do you believe that Intel CPU design was so special that they made 10 such errors when other developers made no one? Actually, all bugs known in other CPUs up to date are just errors found in Intel CPUs that are also applicable to some other ones. Do you really believe that all other cpu vendors made only errors that was initially found in Intel cpus?Next, the attack vector is the following - if execution time depends on the data, then it can be measured and data are revealed. It was used for a while to construct fixed-time cryptographic algorithms, and now we finally realized that non-crypto algorithms may have sensitive data too, so we need to protect everything. And I don't know any guaranteed protection short of using only single-core cpus and clearing all cache levels on context switching - does anyone know better solution?
Spectre and so on are not CPU vulnerabilities, they are attacks. Each month a new attack is developed using these principles. So, it's pretty meaningless to mitigate each particular attack.
imaskar - Sunday, June 2, 2019 - link
Actually, yes. It was special, because it was advanced. They pulled 'smart tricks' to increase performance on existing nodes/architectures. Their speculations was far more speculative than others. And this is the price.Hurk - Monday, June 24, 2019 - link
because they had patented the design, so their competitors could not. the reason why AMD was dorment and second class for so long was due to living off of Intel patents from the Pentium 4 stack that they got through cross-licensing with Nat-Simi before Intel stopped their cross-licensing with them.Intel rebuilt their CPU stack after that based on their mobile processor redesign, (dolphin) that was 100% intel only design and patents. AMD had to do the same thing to break the performance limits of the Pentium 4 architecture. Each ended up with vastly different results.
Korguz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
hstewart..still believing the lies from intel???
zen 2..as fast as intel it seems ( waiting for reviews to be sure.) while running 300 to 400 mhz less. and costing less to boot
better question is.. IF intel comes out with 10nm in volume.. they have been promising this for only the last 4 YEARS now
Hifihedgehog - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Correction:"(Once) The World's Best Gaming Processor
"Now Trying To Play Catch-Up"
Targon - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
So, releasing the cherry-picked 9900k that can overclock to 5GHz on all cores in the fourth quarter is the Intel response to AMD releasing 12 core parts with a higher IPC than Intel has. AMD didn't even release the 16 core parts, just to be sure to have something to fight back with in case Intel actually had a response worth looking at.Intel graphics....it's all smoke and mirrors, "look at me, I'll have something for you in another six months!". I loved the line about people trusting Intel after more security issues were found that when addressed, will reduce the performance of Intel chips.
Chaitanya - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
"01:46AM EDT - Gamers like RGB LEDs and thermals, but noise don't mind"What are the engineers smoking? Gamers are quite concerned with noise along with thermals. I dont want my PC to sound like I am sitting in a datacenter.
alumine - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
That just means you don't have your headphones loud enough ;)Opencg - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Im a gamer and I dont care for RGB and do want good noise levels. My apartment is peaceful I don't want it to sound like a vacuum / airport when I'm gaming and using voice chat.LoneWolf15 - Thursday, May 30, 2019 - link
@Opencg, I'm running an i9-9900K at 4.8GHz max turbo on all eight cores, 100% CPU usage on all cores (Folding@Home) with no noise issues, on air.For reference, my intake fans are a 200mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro and a 200mm Noctua. My exhaust fans are a 230mm Bitfenix Spectre Pro and a 120mm Scythe Gentle Typhoon (medium noise).
Add to that two Noctua Redux 120mm 1300rpm fans for my Thermalright TRUE Black 120 heatsink, and two Geforce GTX 1070 Founder's Edition cards, and it's still very reasonable. I don't need headphones to block noise; I'm using a modest Logitech X-530 5.1 speaker system. Case fans are attached to a Lamptron FC5v2 fan controller, however, all but one fan is running at full 12v; I think I turned my intake Bitfenix 200mm down slightly, to about 10v.
None of my CPU cores go above 80C at full load on all of them. Don't let anyone tell you you can't do a reasonable, quiet job of air cooling with the Coffee Lake Refresh CPUs; it just requires attention to build quality, like should be done with any system build.
MobiusPizza - Thursday, June 20, 2019 - link
That depends a lot on where you live in terms of climateIn summer my computer can get BSOD if I OC it too much while being perfectly fine in winter with the same OC.
HollyDOL - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
RGB is some weird marketing bullshit.I am a gamer, got gamer friends, all only care about perf up, thermals and noise down. Nobody really wants RGB, at best some just suffer it better than others.
Azeero - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I believe no true engineer would want to design things that sacrifice simplicity, performance or cost just to put some horrid lights and brittle, airflow-choking glass everywhere. This is just classic corporate bull****, because they just "KNOW" what people want. We must never settle for RGB TG trash, they won't stop unless people stop buying.Santoval - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I have no idea how this RGB plague got started in the first place. I wouldn't want these things even if I was stoned beyond reason.29a - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I don't get all the RGB hate, just turn them off.inighthawki - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
The hate is that you're paying for tacky garbage.Korguz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
29asometimes.. you cant turn it off
29a - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
But usually you can.Korguz - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
not all the time 29a...risa2000 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
It is difficult to avoid if feature-wise the products without the RGB nonsense are inferior.inighthawki - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I don't think this statement is untrue. Most gamers who dont invest significant amounts into water cooling their GPUs are accustomed to a certain level of noise and also wear headphones, so it's commonly not a big deal if fan noise levels are above average compared to a normal home PC for grandma and grandpa.emilemil1 - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
Agreed. It's the headphones that make the difference. My PC is quite loud but I never notice it at all. I'd happily go with more noise for higher performance at the same price point, as long as it doesn't get unreasonably loud.boozed - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
"Finally a laptop that slays desktops"No more true than the last hundred times anyone made this claim
sgeocla - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Since Intel hasn't really improved desktops in the last years now it's trying to down play them.Opencg - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I would never trust a laptop from dell / alienware to get the rated performance of its cpu and gpu. Get a clevo and use liquid metal if you want a desktop replacement.drothgery - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Reality has been making desktops less and less relevant for the last decade. Gaming (for the subset of games where a PC delivers a significantly better experience than a console) and the small subset of pro work that's demanding enough that a high-end laptop can handle but not demanding enough to offload the real computing off to a server are about the only real use cases for a desktop. And Intel hasn't started with a desktop architecture in designing a new core since the P4 (and won't ever again); that's hardly new.Korguz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
but.. a highend laptop costs a lot more then a desktop of the same performance does... so no thankssgeocla - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel's presentation must have been written before AMD announced yesterday that AMD is also launching laptops with Ryzen 3000 desktop-like CPUs so those Intel laptops are going to be second class in battery life + performance.yeeeeman - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Let's not be that sure yet. In laptops, platform power is what matters, and given PCIE4 is power hungry, given Intel's current advantage in battery life (Whisky Lake vs 3000U series from AMD), I really doubt they can reach or even surpass Intel on this front, even with their 7nm process. But we'll see.SaturnusDK - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
The 3000U series doesn't have PCIe 4.0 (except the PCH perhaps) unless I missed something.The Ice Lake mobile CPUs is the only thing that really looks interesting though. And they should have MDS mitigations in hardware like Whiskey Lake as well.
Tests will show how well they stack up against the 3000U series in performance and battery life because as we all know, performance doesn't come free so there'll definitely be power consumption cost of improving the graphics performance. But since AMD is still on 12nm for their 3000U series, Intel may still have a tentative hold in this rather niche market.
Death666Angel - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Sgeocla did talk about "laptops with Ryzen 3000 desktop-like CPUs". So he is likely talking about Zen 2 laptops, not Zen+ APU laptops. And those Zen 2 CPUs have PCIe4. I have not seen that sort of announcement though. Maybe I just missed it, but I think desktop calls CPUs in laptops (likely 6 and 8 core) from AMD would have been bigger news.Apart from all of that, AMD CPUs and APUs can run without chipsets. They are fully integrated SoCs if need be, with USB and SATA connectivity right on board.
adamo1139 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
How will this work if X570 chipset consumes 11-15W, which is more than some low power CPU's?Irata - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
What makes you think that X570 is for mobile or if a separate chipset will even be needed for that application ?wilsonkf - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Mobile Ryzens don't even require chipset.extide - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
No, the Ryzen 3000 Mobile lineup is Zen+ 12nm, not Zen2 7nm.brakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Acer and Dell guys didn't even talk about Ice Lake. Are they coming back on stage later? I thought it's just a 1 h keynote.HStewart - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I guess you miss the link about XPS 15 2in1 update with ICE Lakebrakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I made these comments during the live stream. The XPS 2-in-1 was shown later and not by the Dell guy himself. They didn't seem to care enough about Ice Lake. High performance CPUs were probably more important to him...brakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Funny thing:Acer COO: shits on Intel during AMD keynote
Acer CEO: kisses Intel's ass during Intel keynote
Heng2010 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
no new interesting products from intel, jusr help venters to sell products (pr marketting), no benchmarch to compete with AMD, can not compete the AMD?brakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
You are right: https://newsroom.intel.com/news/2019-computex-keyn...They released the press release. Nothing new.
brakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
sry wrong link https://newsroom.intel.com/news-releases/2019-comp...Heng2010 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
If AMD can finish and send ryzen mobile 3000 series (like yesterday), they will destroy intel ice lake today , I expect.sgeocla - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Ice Lake gaming benchmarks in the last few days were shown using very high frequency RAM for Intel while gimping AMD system with lower DDR-2400.This is Intel on 10nm barely competing with AMD Vega graphics on 12nm.
AMD just announced their new gaming focused RDNA compute units with 25% higher IPC.
When new 7nm APUs launch Intel in going to have a very bad time.
rgba - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
DDR4-2400 is the maximum supported memory for Ryzen Mobile 3000 series . It's not gimped.tamalero - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Are you talking about JEDEC limits? just like the "max" speed for Ryzen first gen was technically 2933 but could handle up to 3600CL18 ?tamalero - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
And got pretty hefty gains from going from 2400 to 3466CL14 ?rgba - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
No, just the official rated speed. Laptops don't usually allow RAM overclocking.Opencg - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
This is not true at all.ajc9988 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Sorry, but they overclocked the Intel CPU to bring it to 25W "for comparison," then they want to stick to spec for their competitor? That is BS. Shrout said the same thing when trying to crap on IF to make it look worse compared to Intel's mesh. I called him out for it, he just shrugged (if you want the email back and forth, I can give that to you).Also, the Ice Lake-U family, generally, only supports 3200MHz on ram, officially. So the 3733 ram used here is a specific instance, not the general spec, which also shows tom foolery afoot. That difference is 55% memory bandwidth!
So the answer is NOT acceptable. Especially when you are left to ask what the performance on it is without being overclocked.
maroon1 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel U series has 15w and 25w TDP mode. Same thing with AMDextide - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Probably not. Ryzen 3000 mobile series is Zen+ 12nm, not Zen2 7nm. I suspect Ice Lake will do very well against Ryzen 3000 mobile series.IGTrading - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
So ... I like Ice-Lake a lot. A really good advanced chip from Intel. Finally !!!It is worth the upgrade, provided it doesn't cost us a kidney or something :)
Intel's problem is availability. They've said "holiday season" by which I understand November - December 2019.
The thing is that, by that time, AMD's APUs will go to 7nm from the current 12+ nm . Vega will become Navi and Zen cores will become Zen 2 cores.
I don't know if AMD will hurry up to launch 7nm APUs this year, especially since Intel said clearly it won't compete until November.
But even if they (AMD) paper-launch 7nm APUs in October or November ... Intel will be completely screwed on this front as well, again :)
We'll see.... This is a fun year!
Machinus - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
They didn't even mention S-series? Ruh roh. Time to sell your stock before AMD eats the rest of it.Valantar - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
The Ice Lake iGPU looks interesting (particularly with those leaked benchmarks) but I can't help but think there'll be a Navi APU out within a few months of this hitting the shelves that will blow it away. Of course, I might be wrong, but the pieces certainly seem to be falling into place for AMD.brakdoo - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Those Ice lake benchmark gen 11 benchmarks are comple BS. Compare the 8565 with 8569U (standard Iris plus) . You can compare on Notebookchek if you want, I added links at bottom. You will see that you get almost the same results with 48 EU of iris plus., but we all know how bad Iris plus is...Intel cherry picked results where they are strong (like 3D mark). They aren't even close in "real life" (they like to use this marketing term ;) ) to ryzen.
But TBH Raven ridge/Ice Lake/ mx 150 are basically useless for modern games anyway....
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-UHD-Graphics-6...
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Iris-Plus-Grap...
watersb - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel: lots of $$ from years of market domination.This parts for less of Intel engineers, on-site, to work with OEM partners. Everywhere.
So blah blah blah ecosystem and a keynote packed with partners showing the results. Everywhere.
Individual enthusiasts can go with AMD awesome, but if the OEMs keep pumping Intel devices that are good enough, vPro etc, why would they switch to AMD?
That said, Intel is in a world of hurt with the suits, the business people, over MDS mitigation blowing their hyperthreading.
You bet they are showing shiny things on stage today, what can they do?
watersb - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
"parts for less of Intel engineers"WTF, autocorrect
Intel revenue ** pays for lots of Intel engineers **
lobz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I was scratching my head so hard reading that line like 6 times at least... :DI always just assume that I simply can't keep up with the new memes
Deses - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Intel is so full of BS with its presentations. So full of buzzwords and self-help happy words.You are a semiconductor company, you make CPUs, FOCUS on that.
willis936 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
It’s somewhat hard when you have an undergrad EE with a masters in business and no engineering experience compared to an actual engineer with a PhD and a long list of accolades.bogda - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I love your comment!!!Teckk - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Nothing remarkable, nor any wow factor. Same 10nm story that we've been told from forever.isthisavailable - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Details on ice lake u SKUs?bogda - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
"People want systems that are smart and adaptable"Smart users want laptops that are quality built, quick, quiet, cool running with long battery life, but also with a slew of connectors (USBs, DP/HDMI, SD...), upgradable with standard industry parts and without LED/gamer look crap. I have not seen such in a long time.
DanNeely - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Assuming their automatic OC tool does a good job of finding optimal settings its ability to retest over time and adjust for aging silicon is rather attractive to me. Having to repeat the process a few years later when my current chip can't handle quite as much power as it used to is a real drag.KimGitz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Surface Pro 7 with 10th Gen Core i7 4C/8T Ice Lake-U 15W (10nm), 16GB LPDDR4X-3733, Gen 11 Iris Plus graphics, Thunderbolt3/USB4 and WiFi 6.peevee - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
No PCIe4, no DDR5. Still 4 cores, still 3GHz, barely IPC improvement.~Fail. At least LPDDR4x is finally here.
AshlayW - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Oh, please, Intel. Shut up. You spend the last 10 years stagnating mainstream 'innovation' in favour of pure profits and bottom lines. You locked the technology and processing power behind huge pay walls only the rich could afford. You strangled the consumer for every last penny. Now AMD is back with a vengeance and truly innovating again, you offer what? A rehashed piece of crap based on tech from 2014? No thanks.Korguz - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
exactly AshlayW.. thats ALL intel cares about.. profitszealvix - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
So is there any news of their mainstream desktop plans at all for this year to Q1/Q2 of next year?When will icelake/sunny cove be released for desktop?
Ryzen 3XXX seems to have around 10-12% IPC advantage over the coffee lake, at least in non-gaming scenarios.
Saw on other sites there will be 18% ipc improvement for icelake/sunny cove.
Provided it is not just smoke and distorted benchmark results (they didn't seem to release/demo cinebench/blender etc like AMD does) , and they release by Q2 2020 to go against ryzen 4XXX/zen 2+/Zen3, next year will be a close fight.
That if it is reasonably priced.
If they really drag til end of 2020 or even 2021 to get them out....
alpha754293 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
What I want to know is what are those new Xeon E SKUs.The downside is that I still have DRAMATICALLY conflicting hardware needs:
On one hand, I am now bound/limited by the number of PCIe lanes that any CPU OEM has to offer. (AMD is winning this race in theory, but no one, to the best of my knowledge, has actually tested it.)
And on the other, I still need ultra fast single process/sing thread performance that Intel (with their new 9900KS) will dominate. *sigh...decisions, decisions, decisions*
jabbadap - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
They are Coffee lake refresh, essentially same cpus as is 9th i core desktop variants.I.e. top end E-2288G is essentially same core as i9 9900/i9 9900k, with locked multiplier and 95W TDP.
https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compar...
Targon - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
And that 95W only applies to base frequency, not even to single-core turbo frequency. The AMD provided cooler can get AMD chips to the rated speeds for both base and boost frequencies, while Intel....yea, how long can you stay at a turbo frequency with the included cooler?Santoval - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Nothing about the CPU performance of Ice Lake-U? I mean not a single word? ~2x GPU performance is surely neat, though faster wireless is largely a gimmick - unless you are the kind of person who bridges multiple wi-fi routers wirelessly in his house or like to throw LAN parties. Faster AI performance is also nice, though highly specialized. But not if there is a regression in CPU performance due to serious clock and thermal issues, which is apparently the reason Intel pulled back indefinitely(?) the release of mid (H) and high power (S) Ice Lake CPUs.Xyler94 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
I think Intel mentioned 18% IPC over Skylake cores.bogda - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
They are talking about IPC improvements but not performance improvements. This probably means that Ice Lake cannot reach working frequencies of 14nm processors.I do not expect CPU performance regression though.
eastcoast_pete - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
Thanks Ian and Gavin! What I am missing in this episode of "Intel and Friends" are prices! Some of these laptops and rigs sound great, and they probably are, but what's the value proposition? One thing I liked about AMD's presentation on Matisse was that at least they had some recommended prices available. A lot of the products shown here seem to be "price upon request" or "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". You won't move a lot of product with that approach. With AMD on a roll, Intel needs to show now that they can compete on bang for the buck, or it'll be "Intel outside" for more and more customers.dgingeri - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
"42% of millenials would rather leave than work at a company that doesn't have a high standard of technology"Why does management listen to millenials over things like this? They haven't even experienced enough of life to even know what's really good for them or the rest of the world.
catavalon21 - Tuesday, May 28, 2019 - link
As a Baby Boomer in a management role with a large technology-oriented company, I listen to Millenials because they are our future. They are a product of their environment - fast paced, action oriented decision makers. They grew up with technology, they learned on technology, and do awesome things with technology. I have learned that if you want to keep them, you give them opportunities and tools to succeed. Technology is an enabler to that end.Vitor - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
240hz Oled? Oh yeah. Even 120hz is already damn good enough combined with true black.serendip - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
Intel still leads in notebooks and tablets, unfortunately. AMD needs to do a lot more to convince manufacturers to use Zen APUs in Ultrabooks and convertibles like the Surface Pro.Is this because Zen still can't hit sub-10W TDPs like Intel's U lineup?
biostud - Wednesday, May 29, 2019 - link
No news about the 815p optane drive?